i recently purchased the 1st sehr schnell 7" from 1977 on love records
when i look at the record it appears near mint with no scratches or any kind of marks, however the vinyl has no shine like a nm record should, it's pale black, when i played it, i noticed loud surface noise mostly before the song starts on each side, but i can still hear the surface noise through out the songs which is still noticeable just not as loud as the beginning.
is it possible that this record might have record wear?
or maybe a rare occurance that this record came out with no shine
i know most collectors will say if the record has no shine, it's worn
but i also heard a lot of records made in europe in the 1970's didn't have that new record shine.
if anyone can share some expert info on this matter i would greatly appreciate it. thanks!
I am not an expert in this area of records, or know this particular record... but generally most records should have a nice shine to them... however, I have had some terrefic 1960's records that have also had that matt finish to them and sounded terrible... with the records I had, this was down to them being played with a nine inch nail... sorry, I jest... but played with a worn out needle that basically chiselled away at the disc causing a lot of damage down in the grooves.
I've taken to giving records a quick thumb rub before purchasing... a lovely glossy record will feel very smooth, if it the grooves have been chiselled out, it will feel very rough and raised up... this has helped stop me buy some bad collections that have been played to death.
There is however a plastic used by some budget record makers that generally had a more matt looking finish and very quickly wore out and sounded bad.
Upshot... always try to go for the glossy records, the grooves should look clean, fine and smooth.
If the sheen has gone,it sounds awful and the grooves have a slightly grey colour,the disc has almost certainly been skimmed..(Skimming is a process some unscrupulous dealers use to make a scratched record look good..It involves steam or boiling water..It removes nasty scratches but ruins the sound quality)..tom..
Originally Posted By Tom Hutton: If the sheen has gone,it sounds awful and the grooves have a slightly grey colour,the disc has almost certainly been skimmed..(Skimming is a process some unscrupulous dealers use to make a scratched record look good..It involves steam or boiling water..It removes nasty scratches but ruins the sound quality)..tom..
thanks for the info, everything you just said matches up perfectly to what i have described
and the grooves do look grayish, vinyl has spots where it will look gray and in other spots it will look matte black, overall it looks like it was splashed with some kind of chemical and has that stained appearance.
i cannot believe there's dishonest people in the music industry that would do such a rotten thing.
Apparently, and this might be a few years back... many dealers got stung by Mr Public skimming records... they would buy a box of old scratched records for a few pence, skim them and sell them as new... I think they kept a shine for some time.
As for people in the industry... no respected dealer would peddle skimmed discs... (not knowingly)... you will see on this and other sites, that many good dealers have a high feedback and good reputation, and few, if any would want to ruin their reputation.
There is the needle cutting the groove deeper
There is the slight possiblity of skimming
There is also cleaning, sometimes chemicals are used to clean a record, and if the person doesn't take lots of care and pay attention to contact times etc., then this could 'melt' the surface a little and leave blemishes and chemical spots
Jason..Skimming goes on a LOT more than you think!..The amateur skimmer (Mr.Public) has no chance..(He would'nt know how to do it anyway!..It's a complicated business!!)..Any professional dealer can look at a skimmed record and tell that it has been skimmed...I personally know of at least 5 professional dealers who skim all the time (and thats within a 30 mile radius of where I live..And I live on the coast!)..One of them even offers courses in skimming at a considerable fee!..
It's a practice I despise..I won't buy ANYTHING from a skimmer..It's fraud and it's cheating people out of hard earned cash for an inferior product..
Punk collector's record has been tampered with..(It's a £50.00+ single!)..If you need it badly then keep it (It's tough to find)..If not complain to the seller...
Tom...
Thankfully I try to buy my stock mainly from private collections, so hopefully I've dodged the bullet on this one... although I'm suprised I've lasted so long.
I agree with you Tom and I don't understand why any respected dealer would risk their reputation... but, maybe with the anonymity of the internet, some think they can try it on more. I prefer to sell a record warts and all.
What are the best ways of recognising a skimmed disc?
hello Jason..It's a dreadful practice,but the VERY best skimmers seem to be able to do it without lessening the sound!...How to regonise?...Firstly,a tatty sleeve and a clean looking disc is a warning sign...Look closely at the disc and see if there are any light marks (which look as if they COULD have been deeper),these are remains of the original scratches..The grooves will look slightly grey as well..Also..The spindle hole will show excessive wear (which does not match with the clean disc)..There wil be NO hairlines or paper scuffs (which dont match with the spindle wear)..The disc will look slightly matt....QUite often the skimmer will trim an opening edge as well (to remove fraying) and the sleeve will therfore be slightly smaller!..I know skimmers who only do it to albums that are expensive (Linda Hoyle,Artwoods etc)..So I guess if the punter needs it he will haveit and just accept that it don't play as good as it looks..I also know one skimmer who skimmed EVERYTHING that looked a bit rough (including singles he put in his 50 p box!)..
LIke you,I sell stuff as is..(Ok,maybe a reglued seam or a damp cloth over the laminate,but no more..
Private sellers would not have ANY idea how to do skim,so you are safe there!...There will always be ONE dealer at a fair (many more at the big fairs) who will be skimming...
Tom
If you put a vinyl record directly under a bright light and tilt the top of the record slightly upward, then look very carefully, you can definitely see if the record has any scratches, scuffs, hairlines or any other abrasions. If the record doesn't any longer shine and is greyish white in color, the vinyl record condition is NOT near mint!
I don't know how many dealers/sellers I have tried to argue this with online, and many of them just don't get it! They will try to argue their point, and swear on their mothers grave that the vinyl condition is near mint! These are also the same online sellers/dealers who will tell you it is okay if you don't grade conservatively, and also say that near mint basically means you can let some some inconsistencies in grading slip, by preaching the gospel of accuracy.......
Dammit, I ask to myself, at times, out of sheer frustration; what part of NEAR MINT do some record sellers/dealers not understand?
I am guessing many still don't? :-) lol
Yes, I know about these sellers. The best thing you can do is pretty much return the product back to them, and just see to it you never do business with them again. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you, except if this person that sold you the record has a return policy then send it back. If they don't have a return policy, that's okay, because if you paid through Paypal, you will end up getting your money back anyway, regardless........
Trust me, I have been in the online record buying game for awhile now, and I can tell you from experience that there are quite a few characters out there. However, for every seller out there that is not so great, there are plenty that do a damn good job at what they do, and are honest. Nowadays, if you see an honest seller, stick with them, as in these days & times, they are kind of a dying breed, made up of some weird narcissist hipsters! Look out for those! The game, sadly today, is made up of more dishonest people than before and you can blame some of the concealed identities from which sellers try to hide behind on the internet, when they are nothing but dishonest sharks!
My final verdict? If it is a really rare record, then either visit a brick and mortar shop, or go to record shows.
Just my 2 cents, although record shows mostly have typical run-of-the-mill left-overs by the end of the day usually........
this is caused by one of the following things:
1.someone used record cleaner on the lp and did not wipe it clean afterwards,this will leave spots on the lp that will sound scratchy afterwards,especially when it hardens.
2.the lp was played on a turntable without the use of a magnetic moving cartridge,most of the other kinds made during the 50's ,60's & early 70's were horribly bad on lps,examples of stereos that mainly used these not so great cartridges are your typical briefcase stereos,floor model systems with radio ,8-track ,turntable all in one and children's record players of the time and also most any all in one systems,this is why the magnetic moving cartridge was invented because of the better sound quality and it would produce way less wear to the lp,some create so little wear that you can hardly tell that the record was ever played at all,it was quite science so to speak.
3.sometimes it is a manufacturing defect,if 1 or both sides of the lp look bubbly and rough and not warped it was pressed missing a real important ingredient causing the lp to not play smooth.
one final thing,wear on most records is just the bending of the groove on the disc,as a kid i use to have alot of old all in one and briefcase stereos around the house so i would fool around with these by using lps i did not like,the rough needle on one turntable would bend the groove one way to give it a more grey appearance and then another would bend it to give it a slightly darker appearance with the same lp of course and then i placed pennies on the tonearm of the turntable (if you could call them a turntable)this would even turn the groove a silver color ,get a crappy old turntable, some small change,a bunch lps you do not like and are of no value and have some fun,do not use the magnetic type cartridges as all you will do is bend or break the stylus where as most of these are extremely soft.
Hello Sunny boy..No help at all..
..It's not an LP..ALL record cleaning machines use an alcohol based cleaner which evaporates after the machine is used..So "wipe it clean" does not configurate!
Also...It's a single..Not an LP..It a punk single from the 80's!!.Moving coil cartridges are meant for high quality audiophile stuff..Sit in your silent room and whimper in the dark stuff!..
There are LOADs of 60's decks that are great.Those old Garrard decks are fantastic..Don't forget that "All those '60's"records" were meant to be played on '60's decks..They were made for playing ,not revering!..
The theme of this so far is:..Punk collector has a disc that plays damaged but looks OK..What is the problem with the disc?..
I say it has been skimmed..You think it's an album and he need a moving coil cartridge and should have bought it 20 years before it was issued!!..
Pennies on the tone arm and bend the stylus around one way or another!..
You should not be allowed having records or decks at all..If I was Barack O Barmy I wold O Barm O Barack you. ..Tom
people still used the old style cartridge record players made back in the 60's and the 70's during the 80's and even to current day as you can see on youtube,those who did not know any better or did not care about their lps,they thought they were cool or had nothing else ,whatever the situation might be.they still made them during the 80's and still do today.
the magnetic moving cartridge was invented around the late 60's and became popular due to the sound quality and the little to no record wear when in use(unlike the prior cartridges that were available at the time),the reproduction of the sound quality on any 45's or 33's made from the first in 1948 to present day it made no difference, when using a mag mov cartridge the sound quality was by far more superior with less wear done to the record .the mag mov cartridge was designed to reproduce the most accurate sound that the record cutting machine produced and prevent the least wear to a record when in use unlike the previous kinds of styluses and cartridges invented prior to the mag mov cartridges,it was an incredible sound breakthrough for the vinyl record.
all 45's and lps of any size sound better with these cartridges wether they were made in 1950 or present day and no matter of the size and duration and if not played with a mag mov cartridge you can expect groove damage and sometimes it's really not that visible and neither can it be felt with your hand.
i don't believe that the record store is guilty of what you call "skimming" a record,to do this would take enough time that would be not feesible to a business ,especially these days for a record store or at any time for that matter. you should probably be grateful that they had this hard to find 7" 45 from 1977 that you wanted so badly in playable condition,i know i would because someday in the not so distant future there probably will not be record stores to buy records either online or first hand at a somewhat respectable store.if you don't like it you do not have to buy it,nobody is forcing you too,like most mom and pop stores nobody wants a disatisfied customer because overall it's bad for business, you can take what you want from this,it makes no difference to me but it makes an amusing conversation piece ,cheers.
Tom, You must live in a really dodgy area if most dealers and people are skimming all their records, it's no wonder you are jumping to this being the one and only reason why this records sound quality is so bad, despite other valid reasons being offered by people who have had experience of these other reasons.
Where abouts in the UK do you live, near the coast where? It sound like a place I would avoid at all costs if buying vinyl.
Hi. By the sound of it, your record has been stored in a pvc sleeve. Some of these are really bad and pretty much eat into the vinyl, leaving them with a grey dull lack of sheen. Not all vinyl is affected and not all pvc sleeves cause it. A big pile of my record collection was ruined by them as it took me a long time to work out what was happening. I bought them to keep the sleeves mint. You'll notice it on a lot of black vinyl that has been stored in a pvc sleeve instead of paper covers ie 'Urgent' by Foreigner, which came with a free sheet of stickers, and picture discs tend to get it when the edges are clear and not black. The polythene sleeves seem to be fine - so I use those now, but hundreds of pvc sleeves had to go in the bin.
Records I feel don't really wear out from playing them. If your gear is garbage, then your records will end up just the same being played on that gear! If you don't replace your stylus, and are playing your records with a worn needle, then the same will occur.
Simply said, if you do the things that is obvious to do to maintain your vinyl records, then they will take care of you with many years of listening pleasure.
Finally, if somebody is skimming the records you are purchasing, then stop purchasing them from that seller!?!?!?
There were some rather fancy stylus shapes on cartridges a few years ago, one play with one and the record would never sound the same on an elyptical stylus again.
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